That fundamental rule of life is so profound. Easy to talk about but hard to practice! But it's well worth the effort and is a beautiful way to live.
Appreciate the article and analysis. It's writers like yourself that give meaning and depth to these wonderful teachings.
It seems like there's always people willing to exploit
something to gain followers/subscribers and of course wealth etc. Unfortunately those promoting Stoicism as a life hack to gain greater wealth, prestige etc have missed the target completely. Says a lot about what they truly value.
Fortunately there are people such as yourself who have good intentions to educate and inform the public about the true values of embracing philosophy as a way of life. Keep up the good work Massimo.
I asked about this on another’s comment, didn’t want to hijack their thread.
I understand your position on stockdale not being a stoic. Is it possible he wasn’t a stoic for staying in the army, but became a stoic or embraced stoicism later in capitivity?
What are thoughts on the so called stockdale paradox? Is that a stoic ideal?
Is your concern about stockdale more regarding a militaristic version stoicism, as opposed to what the man became.
For full transparency, stockdale is a stoic role model of mine even after you pointed out his flaw regarding staying in the army. Perhaps similar to Seneca remaining in his role as advisor to a deranged Nero.
As a prokopton I am willing to change my views. I don’t have an ego about it, I’m just seeking to learn a new perspective.
ho letto recentemente l'articolo di Henry Gruber sulle "pagine" di psyche.co: Don’t be stoic: Roman Stoicism’s origins show its perniciousness.
fra altre cose sig.Gruber scrive: Stoicism may seem a solution to many of our individual problems, but a society that is run by stoics, or filled with stoics, is a worse society for us to live in.
sono rimasta un po' spiazzata. non sarò la massima esperta di stoicismo, ma se ricordo bene un stoico non cercava di impegnarsi costantemente al servizio dell'interesse comune?
I feel like we reached "peak stoic" the other day when I saw someone on Reddit ask how to watch porn stoically. I assume the answer is: Imagine the actors are corpses, desiccated in the sun.
I really love your articles and books and that is why I subscribed to "figs in winter", which is a real gem and thought provoking. Having said this, I have a few considerations (please forgive my style and my English) 1. I can't understand the way you interpret Stoicism. You tell us many things about Stoic ethics but you say nothing on Stoic attitude towards Monarchy and the Monarchs. Is it true or not that they considered kings and monarchs as an incarnation of the Cosmic Law? ("Lex Animata") I am sure you know very well that Zeno ( the founder of the Stoa, was invited by Antigonos Gonatas to his court and he only refused because he was too old to leave his home. He sent his best friend and student Persaios who was happy to go to Antigonos' court and serve him as his master. He even died for him . He was killed as a soldier defending Corinth when Aratus tried to liberate the city. I have also mentioned (in a former discussion), Sphaerus Borysthenes who was an ardent admirer of Sparta and of Cleomenes III , the Spartan king who tried to revive Sparta's glory. Funny thing, almost all known Stoics, despite their so called "internationalism" admired Sparta, the city that kept its borders closed to foreigners ...
3. I think Nancy Sherman's book "Stoic Warriors" captures the essence of the Stoic stance on War and Discipline. I wonder how can you expect from a Stoic who more than any other considers his duty to obey the Laws of his Country and of his Leader, how can you expect of him to cry: " No! this is immoral !" to his Captain, Leader, Ruler, Governor. Disobeying them is unthinkable for a Stoic. Only an Epicurean (perhaps) or even a Cynic might stand against a tyrant. But certainly not Stoics since they considered them as the Authority they had to obey. And this in my view is one of the most fascinating contradictions of Stoicism.
3. I believe that a Russian soldier can be a good Stoic and serve Putin as a Lex Animata in the same way your favorite Mandela was serving Virtue. It is rather a matter of view: Stoicism is a very flexible philosophy indeed.
I appreciate your descriptions of bad Stoicism and the phrase of life hackery vs philosophy is a great way to remember that. I found your comments about Stockdale very interesting. I have his book but have not started it yet. In your view, Professor, is it impossible for someone in the military to be practicing Stoic philosophy?
Thank you for such a clearly reasoned critique. I’m currently teaching Stoicism to my year 12 philosophy class (that’s the final year of high school here in Australia) so this will prove invaluable to their understanding and evaluations of the philosophy.
Their task is to evaluate Stoicism for its usefulness in a wellbeing context. A common question we come to in our discussions is how mental health might impact one’s ability to practice Stoicism, particularly in terms of the dichotomy of control.
Just wondering what’s your perspective on Stoicism and mental health, or if you could point me in the direction of articles you’d recommend we read?
Here's a side point: Since the 4 Noble Truths require the 8fold Path (the Middle Way) and the Path requires Right Meditation, what exactly is a Buddhist who doesn't meditate? And what is a Stoic who just reads about it, but doesn't engage himself in commitment to a practice. Re Xianity: James 1:22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves.
Thanks Massimo. Stockdale was never one of my role models, but that aside, you pinpoint what about his behavior was problematic. His behavior after the Gulf of Tonkin was indeed blameworthy. I don't fault him on not living up to an ideal sage, but I don't recall that he ever fully acknowledged his complicity in the pentagon war machine enough to prevent doing the same thing in the future. Thanks for the essay.
"Externals like health, wealth, career, reputation, and so forth are not up to us, and therefore we should not concern ourselves with them, says Epictetus. "
It seems to me that these are all things we can influence, if not completely control. I could have chosen to go into defense 'research' and definitely enhanced wealth. I don't think it would have done much for Eudaimonia.
Thank you, Professor, for this tidy and informative rundown of what accounts for good versus bad stoicism. I’m afraid that bad stoicism may be on its way in the form of a motion picture depicting the life of Seneca, played by John Malkovich. I know I shouldn’t prejudge such a creative endeavor, but I cant help imagining the forthcoming film being any more than a piece of campy comedy. I cant wait to see it! Can a movie studio resist the temptation to folllw up with a biopic of Epictetus!? Thank goodness you’re out there to draw the critical distinctions between the true philosophy and the hackers.
That fundamental rule of life is so profound. Easy to talk about but hard to practice! But it's well worth the effort and is a beautiful way to live.
Appreciate the article and analysis. It's writers like yourself that give meaning and depth to these wonderful teachings.
It seems like there's always people willing to exploit
something to gain followers/subscribers and of course wealth etc. Unfortunately those promoting Stoicism as a life hack to gain greater wealth, prestige etc have missed the target completely. Says a lot about what they truly value.
Fortunately there are people such as yourself who have good intentions to educate and inform the public about the true values of embracing philosophy as a way of life. Keep up the good work Massimo.
Thanks for this thoughtful article.
Thank you very much 👍🏻
brilliant
I asked about this on another’s comment, didn’t want to hijack their thread.
I understand your position on stockdale not being a stoic. Is it possible he wasn’t a stoic for staying in the army, but became a stoic or embraced stoicism later in capitivity?
What are thoughts on the so called stockdale paradox? Is that a stoic ideal?
Is your concern about stockdale more regarding a militaristic version stoicism, as opposed to what the man became.
For full transparency, stockdale is a stoic role model of mine even after you pointed out his flaw regarding staying in the army. Perhaps similar to Seneca remaining in his role as advisor to a deranged Nero.
As a prokopton I am willing to change my views. I don’t have an ego about it, I’m just seeking to learn a new perspective.
ho letto recentemente l'articolo di Henry Gruber sulle "pagine" di psyche.co: Don’t be stoic: Roman Stoicism’s origins show its perniciousness.
fra altre cose sig.Gruber scrive: Stoicism may seem a solution to many of our individual problems, but a society that is run by stoics, or filled with stoics, is a worse society for us to live in.
sono rimasta un po' spiazzata. non sarò la massima esperta di stoicismo, ma se ricordo bene un stoico non cercava di impegnarsi costantemente al servizio dell'interesse comune?
Thoughtful, timely and very needed....thank you....this is why I subscribed to your blog.....
I feel like we reached "peak stoic" the other day when I saw someone on Reddit ask how to watch porn stoically. I assume the answer is: Imagine the actors are corpses, desiccated in the sun.
I really love your articles and books and that is why I subscribed to "figs in winter", which is a real gem and thought provoking. Having said this, I have a few considerations (please forgive my style and my English) 1. I can't understand the way you interpret Stoicism. You tell us many things about Stoic ethics but you say nothing on Stoic attitude towards Monarchy and the Monarchs. Is it true or not that they considered kings and monarchs as an incarnation of the Cosmic Law? ("Lex Animata") I am sure you know very well that Zeno ( the founder of the Stoa, was invited by Antigonos Gonatas to his court and he only refused because he was too old to leave his home. He sent his best friend and student Persaios who was happy to go to Antigonos' court and serve him as his master. He even died for him . He was killed as a soldier defending Corinth when Aratus tried to liberate the city. I have also mentioned (in a former discussion), Sphaerus Borysthenes who was an ardent admirer of Sparta and of Cleomenes III , the Spartan king who tried to revive Sparta's glory. Funny thing, almost all known Stoics, despite their so called "internationalism" admired Sparta, the city that kept its borders closed to foreigners ...
3. I think Nancy Sherman's book "Stoic Warriors" captures the essence of the Stoic stance on War and Discipline. I wonder how can you expect from a Stoic who more than any other considers his duty to obey the Laws of his Country and of his Leader, how can you expect of him to cry: " No! this is immoral !" to his Captain, Leader, Ruler, Governor. Disobeying them is unthinkable for a Stoic. Only an Epicurean (perhaps) or even a Cynic might stand against a tyrant. But certainly not Stoics since they considered them as the Authority they had to obey. And this in my view is one of the most fascinating contradictions of Stoicism.
3. I believe that a Russian soldier can be a good Stoic and serve Putin as a Lex Animata in the same way your favorite Mandela was serving Virtue. It is rather a matter of view: Stoicism is a very flexible philosophy indeed.
I appreciate your descriptions of bad Stoicism and the phrase of life hackery vs philosophy is a great way to remember that. I found your comments about Stockdale very interesting. I have his book but have not started it yet. In your view, Professor, is it impossible for someone in the military to be practicing Stoic philosophy?
Thank you for such a clearly reasoned critique. I’m currently teaching Stoicism to my year 12 philosophy class (that’s the final year of high school here in Australia) so this will prove invaluable to their understanding and evaluations of the philosophy.
Their task is to evaluate Stoicism for its usefulness in a wellbeing context. A common question we come to in our discussions is how mental health might impact one’s ability to practice Stoicism, particularly in terms of the dichotomy of control.
Just wondering what’s your perspective on Stoicism and mental health, or if you could point me in the direction of articles you’d recommend we read?
Thanks again
Here's a side point: Since the 4 Noble Truths require the 8fold Path (the Middle Way) and the Path requires Right Meditation, what exactly is a Buddhist who doesn't meditate? And what is a Stoic who just reads about it, but doesn't engage himself in commitment to a practice. Re Xianity: James 1:22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves.
Thanks Massimo. Stockdale was never one of my role models, but that aside, you pinpoint what about his behavior was problematic. His behavior after the Gulf of Tonkin was indeed blameworthy. I don't fault him on not living up to an ideal sage, but I don't recall that he ever fully acknowledged his complicity in the pentagon war machine enough to prevent doing the same thing in the future. Thanks for the essay.
"Externals like health, wealth, career, reputation, and so forth are not up to us, and therefore we should not concern ourselves with them, says Epictetus. "
It seems to me that these are all things we can influence, if not completely control. I could have chosen to go into defense 'research' and definitely enhanced wealth. I don't think it would have done much for Eudaimonia.
Yes, i’m afraid it can. And has. Can’t wait!
Confession: based on very little information, but I was not much of a Stockdale “I don’t even know why I’m here” (parody) fan even before I read this.
Thank you, Professor, for this tidy and informative rundown of what accounts for good versus bad stoicism. I’m afraid that bad stoicism may be on its way in the form of a motion picture depicting the life of Seneca, played by John Malkovich. I know I shouldn’t prejudge such a creative endeavor, but I cant help imagining the forthcoming film being any more than a piece of campy comedy. I cant wait to see it! Can a movie studio resist the temptation to folllw up with a biopic of Epictetus!? Thank goodness you’re out there to draw the critical distinctions between the true philosophy and the hackers.