I feel like we reached "peak stoic" the other day when I saw someone on Reddit ask how to watch porn stoically. I assume the answer is: Imagine the actors are corpses, desiccated in the sun.
I really love your articles and books and that is why I subscribed to "figs in winter", which is a real gem and thought provoking. Having said this, I have a few considerations (please forgive my style and my English) 1. I can't understand the way you interpret Stoicism. You tell us many things about Stoic ethics but you say nothing on Stoic attitude towards Monarchy and the Monarchs. Is it true or not that they considered kings and monarchs as an incarnation of the Cosmic Law? ("Lex Animata") I am sure you know very well that Zeno ( the founder of the Stoa, was invited by Antigonos Gonatas to his court and he only refused because he was too old to leave his home. He sent his best friend and student Persaios who was happy to go to Antigonos' court and serve him as his master. He even died for him . He was killed as a soldier defending Corinth when Aratus tried to liberate the city. I have also mentioned (in a former discussion), Sphaerus Borysthenes who was an ardent admirer of Sparta and of Cleomenes III , the Spartan king who tried to revive Sparta's glory. Funny thing, almost all known Stoics, despite their so called "internationalism" admired Sparta, the city that kept its borders closed to foreigners ...
3. I think Nancy Sherman's book "Stoic Warriors" captures the essence of the Stoic stance on War and Discipline. I wonder how can you expect from a Stoic who more than any other considers his duty to obey the Laws of his Country and of his Leader, how can you expect of him to cry: " No! this is immoral !" to his Captain, Leader, Ruler, Governor. Disobeying them is unthinkable for a Stoic. Only an Epicurean (perhaps) or even a Cynic might stand against a tyrant. But certainly not Stoics since they considered them as the Authority they had to obey. And this in my view is one of the most fascinating contradictions of Stoicism.
3. I believe that a Russian soldier can be a good Stoic and serve Putin as a Lex Animata in the same way your favorite Mandela was serving Virtue. It is rather a matter of view: Stoicism is a very flexible philosophy indeed.
I appreciate your descriptions of bad Stoicism and the phrase of life hackery vs philosophy is a great way to remember that. I found your comments about Stockdale very interesting. I have his book but have not started it yet. In your view, Professor, is it impossible for someone in the military to be practicing Stoic philosophy?
Thank you for such a clearly reasoned critique. I’m currently teaching Stoicism to my year 12 philosophy class (that’s the final year of high school here in Australia) so this will prove invaluable to their understanding and evaluations of the philosophy.
Their task is to evaluate Stoicism for its usefulness in a wellbeing context. A common question we come to in our discussions is how mental health might impact one’s ability to practice Stoicism, particularly in terms of the dichotomy of control.
Just wondering what’s your perspective on Stoicism and mental health, or if you could point me in the direction of articles you’d recommend we read?
Here's a side point: Since the 4 Noble Truths require the 8fold Path (the Middle Way) and the Path requires Right Meditation, what exactly is a Buddhist who doesn't meditate? And what is a Stoic who just reads about it, but doesn't engage himself in commitment to a practice. Re Xianity: James 1:22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves.
Thanks Massimo. Stockdale was never one of my role models, but that aside, you pinpoint what about his behavior was problematic. His behavior after the Gulf of Tonkin was indeed blameworthy. I don't fault him on not living up to an ideal sage, but I don't recall that he ever fully acknowledged his complicity in the pentagon war machine enough to prevent doing the same thing in the future. Thanks for the essay.
"Externals like health, wealth, career, reputation, and so forth are not up to us, and therefore we should not concern ourselves with them, says Epictetus. "
It seems to me that these are all things we can influence, if not completely control. I could have chosen to go into defense 'research' and definitely enhanced wealth. I don't think it would have done much for Eudaimonia.
Thank you, Professor, for this tidy and informative rundown of what accounts for good versus bad stoicism. I’m afraid that bad stoicism may be on its way in the form of a motion picture depicting the life of Seneca, played by John Malkovich. I know I shouldn’t prejudge such a creative endeavor, but I cant help imagining the forthcoming film being any more than a piece of campy comedy. I cant wait to see it! Can a movie studio resist the temptation to folllw up with a biopic of Epictetus!? Thank goodness you’re out there to draw the critical distinctions between the true philosophy and the hackers.
The term I've heard for the first few examples is "Broicism" and I see it all over the internet. I've also noticed certain Stoic communities (r/stoicmemes for example) occasionally promoting a very reductive view of what Stoicism should be like (stiff upper lip, be callously disinterested in basically everything, basically ignore the sophisticated emotional model proposed by the Stoics and act like a crude imitation of Epictetus at his crankinest).
Massimo, you dedicate a significant portion of your chapter on role models to Stockdale. I’m curious what considerations made you change your mind about him. I took from the chapter you still held him as a role model because of his behavior as a POW, and not his contradictory behavior in the war itself. If you’ve clarified this elsewhere, feel free to point me there. Thanks.
Brilliant. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to wrestle with these ideas. Stoicism seems to be a practical philosophy embraced by imperfect people. I frequently see people challenging Seneca's authority because of his questionable actions. This is the first time I've read through the rest of Stockdale's story. Thank you for surfacing the nuance as well as a method for processing it.
Thanks for this. It's articulated a constant nagging issue I've had with Stockdale and some other military types being held up as Stoic exemplars. They may well be exemplars of various specific teachings, but, as you suggest in Stockdale's case, putting them forwards as exemplars of the philosophy of Stoicism, is not correct (even while acknowledging that nobody is perfect). It's clear he wasn't embodying the philosophy, merely one aspect, and that's fine and good to highlight, but when doing this we need to ensure we are clear about that, lest we mislead others.
Thoughtful, timely and very needed....thank you....this is why I subscribed to your blog.....
I feel like we reached "peak stoic" the other day when I saw someone on Reddit ask how to watch porn stoically. I assume the answer is: Imagine the actors are corpses, desiccated in the sun.
I really love your articles and books and that is why I subscribed to "figs in winter", which is a real gem and thought provoking. Having said this, I have a few considerations (please forgive my style and my English) 1. I can't understand the way you interpret Stoicism. You tell us many things about Stoic ethics but you say nothing on Stoic attitude towards Monarchy and the Monarchs. Is it true or not that they considered kings and monarchs as an incarnation of the Cosmic Law? ("Lex Animata") I am sure you know very well that Zeno ( the founder of the Stoa, was invited by Antigonos Gonatas to his court and he only refused because he was too old to leave his home. He sent his best friend and student Persaios who was happy to go to Antigonos' court and serve him as his master. He even died for him . He was killed as a soldier defending Corinth when Aratus tried to liberate the city. I have also mentioned (in a former discussion), Sphaerus Borysthenes who was an ardent admirer of Sparta and of Cleomenes III , the Spartan king who tried to revive Sparta's glory. Funny thing, almost all known Stoics, despite their so called "internationalism" admired Sparta, the city that kept its borders closed to foreigners ...
3. I think Nancy Sherman's book "Stoic Warriors" captures the essence of the Stoic stance on War and Discipline. I wonder how can you expect from a Stoic who more than any other considers his duty to obey the Laws of his Country and of his Leader, how can you expect of him to cry: " No! this is immoral !" to his Captain, Leader, Ruler, Governor. Disobeying them is unthinkable for a Stoic. Only an Epicurean (perhaps) or even a Cynic might stand against a tyrant. But certainly not Stoics since they considered them as the Authority they had to obey. And this in my view is one of the most fascinating contradictions of Stoicism.
3. I believe that a Russian soldier can be a good Stoic and serve Putin as a Lex Animata in the same way your favorite Mandela was serving Virtue. It is rather a matter of view: Stoicism is a very flexible philosophy indeed.
I appreciate your descriptions of bad Stoicism and the phrase of life hackery vs philosophy is a great way to remember that. I found your comments about Stockdale very interesting. I have his book but have not started it yet. In your view, Professor, is it impossible for someone in the military to be practicing Stoic philosophy?
Thank you for such a clearly reasoned critique. I’m currently teaching Stoicism to my year 12 philosophy class (that’s the final year of high school here in Australia) so this will prove invaluable to their understanding and evaluations of the philosophy.
Their task is to evaluate Stoicism for its usefulness in a wellbeing context. A common question we come to in our discussions is how mental health might impact one’s ability to practice Stoicism, particularly in terms of the dichotomy of control.
Just wondering what’s your perspective on Stoicism and mental health, or if you could point me in the direction of articles you’d recommend we read?
Thanks again
Here's a side point: Since the 4 Noble Truths require the 8fold Path (the Middle Way) and the Path requires Right Meditation, what exactly is a Buddhist who doesn't meditate? And what is a Stoic who just reads about it, but doesn't engage himself in commitment to a practice. Re Xianity: James 1:22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves.
I needed that. Thanks ...
Thanks Massimo. Stockdale was never one of my role models, but that aside, you pinpoint what about his behavior was problematic. His behavior after the Gulf of Tonkin was indeed blameworthy. I don't fault him on not living up to an ideal sage, but I don't recall that he ever fully acknowledged his complicity in the pentagon war machine enough to prevent doing the same thing in the future. Thanks for the essay.
"Externals like health, wealth, career, reputation, and so forth are not up to us, and therefore we should not concern ourselves with them, says Epictetus. "
It seems to me that these are all things we can influence, if not completely control. I could have chosen to go into defense 'research' and definitely enhanced wealth. I don't think it would have done much for Eudaimonia.
Yes, i’m afraid it can. And has. Can’t wait!
Confession: based on very little information, but I was not much of a Stockdale “I don’t even know why I’m here” (parody) fan even before I read this.
Thank you, Professor, for this tidy and informative rundown of what accounts for good versus bad stoicism. I’m afraid that bad stoicism may be on its way in the form of a motion picture depicting the life of Seneca, played by John Malkovich. I know I shouldn’t prejudge such a creative endeavor, but I cant help imagining the forthcoming film being any more than a piece of campy comedy. I cant wait to see it! Can a movie studio resist the temptation to folllw up with a biopic of Epictetus!? Thank goodness you’re out there to draw the critical distinctions between the true philosophy and the hackers.
The term I've heard for the first few examples is "Broicism" and I see it all over the internet. I've also noticed certain Stoic communities (r/stoicmemes for example) occasionally promoting a very reductive view of what Stoicism should be like (stiff upper lip, be callously disinterested in basically everything, basically ignore the sophisticated emotional model proposed by the Stoics and act like a crude imitation of Epictetus at his crankinest).
Massimo, you dedicate a significant portion of your chapter on role models to Stockdale. I’m curious what considerations made you change your mind about him. I took from the chapter you still held him as a role model because of his behavior as a POW, and not his contradictory behavior in the war itself. If you’ve clarified this elsewhere, feel free to point me there. Thanks.
Brilliant. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to wrestle with these ideas. Stoicism seems to be a practical philosophy embraced by imperfect people. I frequently see people challenging Seneca's authority because of his questionable actions. This is the first time I've read through the rest of Stockdale's story. Thank you for surfacing the nuance as well as a method for processing it.
Thanks for this. It's articulated a constant nagging issue I've had with Stockdale and some other military types being held up as Stoic exemplars. They may well be exemplars of various specific teachings, but, as you suggest in Stockdale's case, putting them forwards as exemplars of the philosophy of Stoicism, is not correct (even while acknowledging that nobody is perfect). It's clear he wasn't embodying the philosophy, merely one aspect, and that's fine and good to highlight, but when doing this we need to ensure we are clear about that, lest we mislead others.