Massimo, I've been giving some thought to this idea that no one does wrong on purpose. But really, can't we imagine someone thinking, "I know what I'm about to do is wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway"?
The other day, I had this conversation with my very disgruntled colleague.
Colleague :"you are smart, right? How do you feel everyday about being surrounded by idiots?"
Me: well I think I'm pretty dumb. I think everyone is very smart in their own ways."
Colleague :" I see, you have empathy. Guess what, there's no em-pathetic without 'pathetic'!"
Ok so he was stressed and he is usually offensive, and I'm not easily offended, so I just had a laugh with him in the end.
However, it did make me wonder about the "pathetic" part of "empathy". I understand that all of us live in our own constructed mental worlds, and even though we all love virtues, each one of us have very different interpretations of what virtues are (I try following the Stoic interpretation, but my silicon Valley tech bros have very different interpretations haha š). Am I pathetic because I'm empathetic? Is being "pathetic" really a bad thing? What if others think I'm pathetic but I don't because I think I'm virtuous? Am I borderline on being nasscisistic that way?
I worked through the Handbook once (finished mid 2023) and this was one of the exercises that stuck with me. In hindsight, half the battle is coping with my own emotions rising out of impressions - as a result of reconsidering my preconceptions of others. Thereās a humility and acceptance that is necessary and yet so dang hard to do, sometimes.
This has been a very relatable exercise. Learning to try to understand things from othersā POV in relation to their concept of good and evil has been one of the most important takeaways from Stoicism for me. Either a person is wrong and I should pity them, they are correct and I should not be angry with them, or perhaps a third option (more epistemologically) is that itās unclear who is right and who is wrong. In that case why should I be frustrated with them if even Iām not completely sure of who was in the right and wrong?
I think I do fairly well at looking at things from another's perspective, even when I don't agree with them. My wife however is a different story. Whenever she comes across a perceived wrong, she'll say the perceived wrongdoer "should have known better." Or "what gave her the right to speak to me that way?" Or "people are responsible for their own words/actions and should be held accountable for them." I guess you could say she subscribes to a sort of deontological ethics. It seems to me that you need to be oriented towards virtue ethics beforehand to be open to perspective taking, correct?
Thank you, Massimo. I think this is one of the basis for diplomacy and conflict resolution. Being aware of the otherās motivations and reasons makes it easier reconsidering oneās positions or arguing over the otherās.
Dear Massimo, the weekly exercises are challenging me. And I hope making me a better Stoic. I dispute the Stoic idea that āno one wants to do wrong on purposeā. I guess the definition of doing wrong comes into play. However, my experience as a physician who has been sued for malpractice (and found ānot guiltyā after 5 dreadful years) raises questions about intent. In this situation, my employer (Iām an ER doc) was a private equity firm that purchased the medical practice from the hospital where I worked. Shortly after I was sued, the PE firm declared bankruptcy of the medical group (the PE owned about 200 ER practices) and it turned out that the owners of the PE firm stopped paying our malpractice insurance premiums (part of the contractual contract with the physicians was to pay this), and when I was sued, I had no coverage and my entire life was at risk. It ended up in federal bankruptcy court, that ruled that each plaintiff in the several hundred cases that were left without insurance would get a small portion of the bankruptcy assets. So that nightmare was over. But the PE firm reorganized under a new name and resumed their ownership of medical practices. So my point is that I canāt see the people who did this as anything but greedy and evil.
Thank you for letting me relate my story, and I would appreciate guidance when faced with greed and evil, especially on the corporate/political level when directed against the individual.
That certainly makes sense to my view of things.I came across this recently : Act virtuously under whatever circumstances because circumstances are the materials the universe throws at us to practice our virtue and strengthen our character.
I know potentially violent extremists and I use this practice to have compassion for them and get along with them in social and family functions. I have come to understand they are parts of an identity group that has a world view that believes violence is justified because they believe the US is under a dictatorship. I obviously do not share their beliefs, but I understand how they came to them through a steady diet of News Max and Info Wars.
They are encouraging me to get ready for a coming Civil War. This time though these Stoic exercises I am hoping to be able to balance my compassion for people who would be otherwise good people (but are planning on participating in activity I see as evil), with a need to be vigilant and participate in the defense of what I hold true and dear. Unlike Marcus, I am no emperor, but I too have responsibilities to a greater good. I am looking forward to a deeper dive this time through the 52 weeks. Thank you.
We should figure out what incorrect notion led them to act how they did.Life experience taught me when you assume why people do what they do 9times out of ten ( two out of three these days ) you are wrong. Step two : do I have the same values? Being human I probably do.Should we just cover our bases and be compassionate and forgiving regardless ?
Feeling sorry for someone has a bit of an edge to me.Being compassionate is a part of becoming a better person hence my interest in Stoicism.So how do I "..go to and mark....." the other person's motivation in practice?
My first thoughts here are love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek,next are some Stoic practices to deal with anger like just walk away from that person.I have poor social skills and can't imagine how to engage this person to find out what motivates them never mind stepping into their shoes.Is feeling sorry for someone equal to showing sympathy
Thanks. In our divided partisan politics it is all to easy to feel righteous. Neither group of righteous indignants can find it easy to understand the other, and there is little dialog. Approaching each other finding aspects of mutual concern difficult, but necessity.. Iāll try harder..
Massimo, I've been giving some thought to this idea that no one does wrong on purpose. But really, can't we imagine someone thinking, "I know what I'm about to do is wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway"?
What did Marcus look like?? I had to share this with you Massimo!
https://www.royaltynowstudios.com/blog/blog-post-title-one-pxydc-3e4k2-lwr6a
The other day, I had this conversation with my very disgruntled colleague.
Colleague :"you are smart, right? How do you feel everyday about being surrounded by idiots?"
Me: well I think I'm pretty dumb. I think everyone is very smart in their own ways."
Colleague :" I see, you have empathy. Guess what, there's no em-pathetic without 'pathetic'!"
Ok so he was stressed and he is usually offensive, and I'm not easily offended, so I just had a laugh with him in the end.
However, it did make me wonder about the "pathetic" part of "empathy". I understand that all of us live in our own constructed mental worlds, and even though we all love virtues, each one of us have very different interpretations of what virtues are (I try following the Stoic interpretation, but my silicon Valley tech bros have very different interpretations haha š). Am I pathetic because I'm empathetic? Is being "pathetic" really a bad thing? What if others think I'm pathetic but I don't because I think I'm virtuous? Am I borderline on being nasscisistic that way?
I worked through the Handbook once (finished mid 2023) and this was one of the exercises that stuck with me. In hindsight, half the battle is coping with my own emotions rising out of impressions - as a result of reconsidering my preconceptions of others. Thereās a humility and acceptance that is necessary and yet so dang hard to do, sometimes.
This has been a very relatable exercise. Learning to try to understand things from othersā POV in relation to their concept of good and evil has been one of the most important takeaways from Stoicism for me. Either a person is wrong and I should pity them, they are correct and I should not be angry with them, or perhaps a third option (more epistemologically) is that itās unclear who is right and who is wrong. In that case why should I be frustrated with them if even Iām not completely sure of who was in the right and wrong?
I think I do fairly well at looking at things from another's perspective, even when I don't agree with them. My wife however is a different story. Whenever she comes across a perceived wrong, she'll say the perceived wrongdoer "should have known better." Or "what gave her the right to speak to me that way?" Or "people are responsible for their own words/actions and should be held accountable for them." I guess you could say she subscribes to a sort of deontological ethics. It seems to me that you need to be oriented towards virtue ethics beforehand to be open to perspective taking, correct?
Thank you, Massimo. I think this is one of the basis for diplomacy and conflict resolution. Being aware of the otherās motivations and reasons makes it easier reconsidering oneās positions or arguing over the otherās.
Also, Iāve been studying Wagnerās Ring Cycle for the past 10 years or so, and looking at how power corrupts, and the consequences of that.
Dear Massimo, the weekly exercises are challenging me. And I hope making me a better Stoic. I dispute the Stoic idea that āno one wants to do wrong on purposeā. I guess the definition of doing wrong comes into play. However, my experience as a physician who has been sued for malpractice (and found ānot guiltyā after 5 dreadful years) raises questions about intent. In this situation, my employer (Iām an ER doc) was a private equity firm that purchased the medical practice from the hospital where I worked. Shortly after I was sued, the PE firm declared bankruptcy of the medical group (the PE owned about 200 ER practices) and it turned out that the owners of the PE firm stopped paying our malpractice insurance premiums (part of the contractual contract with the physicians was to pay this), and when I was sued, I had no coverage and my entire life was at risk. It ended up in federal bankruptcy court, that ruled that each plaintiff in the several hundred cases that were left without insurance would get a small portion of the bankruptcy assets. So that nightmare was over. But the PE firm reorganized under a new name and resumed their ownership of medical practices. So my point is that I canāt see the people who did this as anything but greedy and evil.
Thank you for letting me relate my story, and I would appreciate guidance when faced with greed and evil, especially on the corporate/political level when directed against the individual.
That certainly makes sense to my view of things.I came across this recently : Act virtuously under whatever circumstances because circumstances are the materials the universe throws at us to practice our virtue and strengthen our character.
š
I know potentially violent extremists and I use this practice to have compassion for them and get along with them in social and family functions. I have come to understand they are parts of an identity group that has a world view that believes violence is justified because they believe the US is under a dictatorship. I obviously do not share their beliefs, but I understand how they came to them through a steady diet of News Max and Info Wars.
They are encouraging me to get ready for a coming Civil War. This time though these Stoic exercises I am hoping to be able to balance my compassion for people who would be otherwise good people (but are planning on participating in activity I see as evil), with a need to be vigilant and participate in the defense of what I hold true and dear. Unlike Marcus, I am no emperor, but I too have responsibilities to a greater good. I am looking forward to a deeper dive this time through the 52 weeks. Thank you.
We should figure out what incorrect notion led them to act how they did.Life experience taught me when you assume why people do what they do 9times out of ten ( two out of three these days ) you are wrong. Step two : do I have the same values? Being human I probably do.Should we just cover our bases and be compassionate and forgiving regardless ?
Feeling sorry for someone has a bit of an edge to me.Being compassionate is a part of becoming a better person hence my interest in Stoicism.So how do I "..go to and mark....." the other person's motivation in practice?
My first thoughts here are love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek,next are some Stoic practices to deal with anger like just walk away from that person.I have poor social skills and can't imagine how to engage this person to find out what motivates them never mind stepping into their shoes.Is feeling sorry for someone equal to showing sympathy
Thanks. In our divided partisan politics it is all to easy to feel righteous. Neither group of righteous indignants can find it easy to understand the other, and there is little dialog. Approaching each other finding aspects of mutual concern difficult, but necessity.. Iāll try harder..