Ironic on further examination how generally accepted assessments and judgments can turn 180°. And, yes, sobering echoes. Athenian political, economic, and militaristic hegemony, once again, as we continue to read the scrolls of two-thousand years ago, remarkably parallel the courses of governments and civilizations today. It’s like we’re remastering old films, and seeing new details in the cinematography telling the actual story. 😊 📚 🎞️👍
The war wasn’t the only reason Athenian democracy (or “democracy”, you can fight over that) had a bad name for well over two millennia - killing Socrates wasn’t too helpful.
Underlining how limited the democratic nature of Athens was only strengthens the case against democracy IMO. If you are in a discussion with Edmund Burke (say) or so and he points to Athens and you refer to the non-rich, women and slaves, that won’t convince Burke at all. After all, he believed that the number of people with a voice in the running of the state in Pericles’ Athens and revolutionary France was way too high. You’re unlikely to convince him that a wider rule would be better.
Recently finished Re read of The Peloponnesian war..written, as is almost always the case, from a hardly unbiased perspective. My biggest takeaway was that “Greece” lost…and that the actual number of combatants was quite small, for such an outsized “importance to history”…quite shortly after these wars, both the winner Sparta and loser Athens were largely irrelevant, both militarily, and politically. The candor of the sources was refreshing, albeit brutally honest…literally.
Aug 4, 2023·edited Aug 4, 2023Liked by Massimo Pigliucci
I don't think you'd feel that way if you read his books. At any rate get a copy of the collapse of antiquity and read it I'm sure with your interest and knowledge some of the references and the history will make more sense to you than they did to me. I know some about the history of Greece and Rome, the common big points that you get from Reading world history, but there's so much detail in this books that I had to constantly look things up and look at the maps in the book to understand where this place was and where that one was. Etc. Here's a two-part video of Hudson discussing the book. Part 1, https://youtu.be/CmazxjNHVs4. And as far as the USA and it's Constitution, how it is not egalitarian and where it came from, I think We The Elites, by Robert Ovets, is a significant book.https://youtu.be/UkyEzlarues
It is too bad that The American Congress has lost it’s way and has been stung by it’s own hubris and it is blind to the classics from Rome and Greece that offer a view of history and philosophy that could realign America on a stronger foundation than it has been treading on for the last 50 years.
“Alcibiades was the Elon Musk of ancient Athens, just as uber-rich, but more handsome.” Hahaha! You’re killin me! Thanks for this great read. I agree the realpolitik is oddly refreshing!
Interesting, and thoughts and ponders... I have listened to and read many debunking the Thucydides Trap. I read most of Allison's book when it was the new thing a few years back, and I probably agree with Michael Hudson, as I do on most things. Bunk.
Michael Hudson... Hudson points out in his newest book The Collapse of Antiquity (I highly recommend it) that, once upon a time, Tyranny was a good word, not a bad one, as he describes the ancient Roman Kings as a positive, and the Republic, a not so much. Because the Roman kings still cancelled Debt. as had the more ancient rulers, Hammurabi and those who followed him, (mentioned by Hudson in his history of debt #1 Forgive them their debts, and also history of debt #2, the Collapse of Antiquity.
Once Kings became a Roman evil, because the oligopoly fat-cats of that time made most of their money from debt (rents) and did not want debt cancellation, Roman society (and the Western civilization that followed) went to shit, setting the stage for the last two thousand years of pro fatcat enslavement of the people, by one means or another... A negative from Hudson's viewpoint, and also, my own.
The mismanagement of the Peloponnesian war by Athens, as described by Thucydides, was terrible and had one effect that Massimo hasn't mentioned: it gave democracy a bad name for millennia. For political thinkers from Plato and Aristotle to the the authors of the Federalist papers (most of whom knew the classics well) democracy meant mob rule - poor decisions, random cruelty - with reference to Athens of the 5th century BC. Notably, the founders of the US spoke of a republic in order to avoid any association with Athens.
Ironic on further examination how generally accepted assessments and judgments can turn 180°. And, yes, sobering echoes. Athenian political, economic, and militaristic hegemony, once again, as we continue to read the scrolls of two-thousand years ago, remarkably parallel the courses of governments and civilizations today. It’s like we’re remastering old films, and seeing new details in the cinematography telling the actual story. 😊 📚 🎞️👍
The war wasn’t the only reason Athenian democracy (or “democracy”, you can fight over that) had a bad name for well over two millennia - killing Socrates wasn’t too helpful.
Underlining how limited the democratic nature of Athens was only strengthens the case against democracy IMO. If you are in a discussion with Edmund Burke (say) or so and he points to Athens and you refer to the non-rich, women and slaves, that won’t convince Burke at all. After all, he believed that the number of people with a voice in the running of the state in Pericles’ Athens and revolutionary France was way too high. You’re unlikely to convince him that a wider rule would be better.
Just signed up to DJ, on your Recommendation.👍
Yes, I agree.
Recently finished Re read of The Peloponnesian war..written, as is almost always the case, from a hardly unbiased perspective. My biggest takeaway was that “Greece” lost…and that the actual number of combatants was quite small, for such an outsized “importance to history”…quite shortly after these wars, both the winner Sparta and loser Athens were largely irrelevant, both militarily, and politically. The candor of the sources was refreshing, albeit brutally honest…literally.
From Adam and Eve and Able and Cain, etc. But who knows the origin of human evil? Not I!
Did God err badly when he created humankind on the sixth day? Genesis 1. Yes.
I don't think you'd feel that way if you read his books. At any rate get a copy of the collapse of antiquity and read it I'm sure with your interest and knowledge some of the references and the history will make more sense to you than they did to me. I know some about the history of Greece and Rome, the common big points that you get from Reading world history, but there's so much detail in this books that I had to constantly look things up and look at the maps in the book to understand where this place was and where that one was. Etc. Here's a two-part video of Hudson discussing the book. Part 1, https://youtu.be/CmazxjNHVs4. And as far as the USA and it's Constitution, how it is not egalitarian and where it came from, I think We The Elites, by Robert Ovets, is a significant book.https://youtu.be/UkyEzlarues
It is too bad that The American Congress has lost it’s way and has been stung by it’s own hubris and it is blind to the classics from Rome and Greece that offer a view of history and philosophy that could realign America on a stronger foundation than it has been treading on for the last 50 years.
“Alcibiades was the Elon Musk of ancient Athens, just as uber-rich, but more handsome.” Hahaha! You’re killin me! Thanks for this great read. I agree the realpolitik is oddly refreshing!
Interesting, and thoughts and ponders... I have listened to and read many debunking the Thucydides Trap. I read most of Allison's book when it was the new thing a few years back, and I probably agree with Michael Hudson, as I do on most things. Bunk.
Michael Hudson... Hudson points out in his newest book The Collapse of Antiquity (I highly recommend it) that, once upon a time, Tyranny was a good word, not a bad one, as he describes the ancient Roman Kings as a positive, and the Republic, a not so much. Because the Roman kings still cancelled Debt. as had the more ancient rulers, Hammurabi and those who followed him, (mentioned by Hudson in his history of debt #1 Forgive them their debts, and also history of debt #2, the Collapse of Antiquity.
Once Kings became a Roman evil, because the oligopoly fat-cats of that time made most of their money from debt (rents) and did not want debt cancellation, Roman society (and the Western civilization that followed) went to shit, setting the stage for the last two thousand years of pro fatcat enslavement of the people, by one means or another... A negative from Hudson's viewpoint, and also, my own.
Thanks for the additional notes. I read this edition last month and like you came away convinced of the applicability of the material to modern times.
Nice piece!
The mismanagement of the Peloponnesian war by Athens, as described by Thucydides, was terrible and had one effect that Massimo hasn't mentioned: it gave democracy a bad name for millennia. For political thinkers from Plato and Aristotle to the the authors of the Federalist papers (most of whom knew the classics well) democracy meant mob rule - poor decisions, random cruelty - with reference to Athens of the 5th century BC. Notably, the founders of the US spoke of a republic in order to avoid any association with Athens.